More Information on Some Children of Agnes Neil, Child of John Neil and Mary Anne Chrystal
NOTE THAT THIS BLOG POST WAS WRITTEN BEFORE I DISCOVERED A CIVIL MARRIAGE FOR AGNES WHICH CLEARED UP A LOT OF ISSUES. SHE ACTUALLY MARRIED WILLIAM GOW YOUNG ON 1 JAN 1913. I have left it unedited as it shows how I researched the person. The full story as I now know it can he read in the section on Agnes Neil is the sub-page of this site here
A “hint” from Ancestry.com led me to a tree that referenced John Neil and Mary Anne Chrystal and their children. I had already discovered some vital facts for several of their children including Mary Ann (b 1881), Sarah (b 1883) and Elisabeth (b 1886). But when it came to the next child, Agnes (b1888), I was stumped and could not find out any more about her. On my own web site I had written:
“We went on to look for a marriage of an Agnes Neil between 1909 to 1918, when she would have been aged between 21 and 30 but could not find any obviously likely entry – that is to say no entry for the usual parishes we might expect for the family. We also looked for the death of an Agnes Neil between 1901 when we know she was alive (Census for 21 Salisbury Street) and 1969 when she would have been eighty one years old but we could not find a suitable entry here either. A reasonable conclusion might be that she was one of the Agnes Neil marriages we saw from the earlier search but as we do not know what parish to look at we stopped here.”
However, this hint put me back on track with Agnes as it suggested a date and place of death that allowed me to find her death registration in which a husband is mentioned. Although my research followed a rather circuitous path, the following story records the events chronologically.
Marriage of Agnes Neil to William Gow Young
The mention of her husband’s name in her death certificate, naturally set me looking for the marriage of Agnes to William Gow Young. I initially looked at Find My Past and found a marriage entry in the “Scotland Roman Catholic Parish Marriages, Dundee, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland” in the parish of St Mary, Our Lady of Victories, Dundee.
On 25 Nov 1933 Agnes Neil married William Gow Young. The witnesses were Mary Masterson and Mary Young. The record is here and I filed this document as N334.jpg.
It was interesting to see that the couple married in the Catholic faith but there wasn’t much more information there. Curiously, nearly all the marriages recorded the names of the parents of the married couple but there is a blank space for this entry.
I searched for the marriage in the statutory register indexes on the Scotland’s People web site but this produced a different story. The index to the statutory marriage registrations gave a date of 1913 for the marriage.
The registration recorded that the marriage took place on 1 January 1913 at 35 Nelson Street, Dundee according to the Forms of the Baptist Church. William G Young (??) Warehouseman (?) (bachelor) aged 22 of 35 Nelson Street, the son of William Gow Young, General Labourer and Ann Young (prev ??) Duncan M.S. Millar
married
Agnes Neill, Jute Preparer (spinster), aged 24 of 43 Main Street, Dundee. She was the daughter of John Neil, Carter (Dec) and Mary Ann Neill M.S. Chrystal.
It was signed by George M Sheppey Pastor (???) Baptist Church. The witnesses were James Ross and Maggie Murphy. The marriage was registered 2 January 1913 at Dundee.
I filed this as N341.jpg and the original is at Scotland’s People here
How Agnes got to end up in Dundee is not known though Dundee became an appealing prospect for work as some industries went into decline in Glasgow and the Jute industry, centred around Dundee, boomed. This registration notes that her father was dead; in fact he died 30 December 1911.
It is not clear why Agnes and William were married again. The statutory registration says that they were married in the Baptist faith in 1913 and in the Catholic faith in 1933.
My next course of action was to look for deaths of William Gow Young on the Scotland’s People site and this produced the following:
Surname Forename Age at death Mother’s Maiden Name Gender Year Ref RD Name
YOUNG WILLIAM GOW 78 M 1969 282 / 2 / 32 Dundee East and West
YOUNG WILLIAM GOW 72 WILKIE M 1926 282 / 3 / 415 St Andrew (Dundee)
YOUNG WILLIAM GOW 79 M 1957 685 / 5 / 284 George Square
YOUNG WILLIAM GOW 2 LANGLANDS M 1882 282 / 1 / 295 St Peter
YOUNG WILLIAMINA GOW 91 NEILL F 2008 351 / 637 Dundee
What jumped out at me first was the last entry for Williamina Gow Young who died in Dundee aged 91 (born c 1917) with a mother with a maiden name of Neill.
I searched Find My Past and found a baptismal entry for Williamina Gow Young in the “Scotland Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms, Dundee, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland” in the parish of St Mary, Our Lady of Victories, Dundee. This was where Agnes’s marriage was recorded. In the same registers I also found the birth of an earlier daughter.
Birth of Margaret Young 1914
I looked for other children at Find My Past and came across an earlier birth – that of Margaret Young on 6 Sep 1914. She was baptised at St Mary, Our Lady of Victories (RC), Dundee on 23 Jul 1914. Her father is given as William Young and her mother as Agnes Neill. The address given is 69 Hilltown. The sponsor is Margaret Cunningham. A note says Pater Prot. There is also a later handwritten addition that says “married to Joseph H. Batchelor June 22 1935”
I filed the image of this marriage as N337.jpg and the original image can be found here.
Note that the baptism (23 Jul 1914) appears to come before the birth (6 Sep 1914) . The statutory record says
YOUNG • MARGARET • NEILL • F • 1913 • 282 / 4 / 1199 • St Andrew (Dundee)
So it is more likely that the dates are mixed up and she was born 23 July 1913.
The image can be viewed but it is a bit of an outlier to be concerned with clearing it up exactly
Marriage of Margaret Young to Joseph Hood Batchelor 22 Jun 1939.
I looked up the marriage in Find My Past and it was also recorded at St Mary, Our Lady of Victories (RC), Dundee on 22 Jun 1939. On that day Margaret Young daughter of William Gow Young and Agnes Neill married Joseph Hood Batchelor son of William Batchelor and Isabella Brown. Witnesses were James Lettuce and Mary Young. No address is given.
Birth of Williamina Young 1917
Williamina Young was born 14 Jul 1917 and baptised 25 Jul 1917 at St Mary, Our Lady of Victories, Dundee (RC). She was the daughter of William Young and Agnes Neill. The address given is 21 Nelson Street, The sponsor was Lizzie Sturrs. There is a note in red in the right page margin that reads M.R26/1942. I recorded this record image as N335.jpg
Marriage of Williamina Young to Allan Farrell 9 Jun 1942.
As for Williamina, she married on 9 Jun 1942 in the same parish as her mother had married , St Mary, Our Lady of Victories (RC), Dundee. She married Allan Farrell. Her parents were given as Agnes Neill and William Young. His parents are given as Andrew Farrell Mary Ann Inglis. Witnesses were Allan Watson and Margaret Batchelor.
I filed the image of this marriage as N336.jpg and the original image can be found here.
I could not find any more children born to Agnes and William and the next mention of Agnes that I could find was her death.
Death of Agnes Neil or Young
As mentioned above, our locating of Agnes after the 1901 census was a result of a tree that was hinted at online (the family tree of Lisa Cooper) that suggested that she died 15 Jan 1938 Dundee, Angus, Scotland. I looked up deaths in Scotland’s People and there were only a couple of entries (actually referring to the same person by married and maiden name).
As mentioned above, our locating of Agnes after the 1901 census was a result of a tree that was hinted at online (the family tree of Lisa Cooper) that suggested that she died 15 Jan 1938 Dundee, Angus, Scotland. I looked up deaths in Scotland’s People and there were only a couple of entries (actually referring to the same person by married and maiden name).
This showed that Agnes was “married to William Gow Young, Dredger Hopperman. She died at 2am on 15th January 1938, aged 49 years, at Kings Cross Hospital. Her usual residence was 10 Carnegie Street Dundee. Her father was John Neil, Carter (deceased) and Mary Ann Neil ms Chrystal (deceased). The causes of death were given as Typhoid Fever, Bilateral Broncho Pnuemonia and Septic Parotitis. W Burns Clark MB CLB sertified the death and the informant was William Gow Young, widower, of 10 Carnegie Street. The death was registered 15th January 1938 at Dundee.
I filed this death registration as N333.jpg
During my research I found that William Gow Young had remarried. William’s second marriage took place two years after the death of his first wife, Agnes Neill.
Second Marriage of William Gow Young 22 Jun 1940
I found this marriage on the FInd My Past web site in the parish of St Patrick (RC), Dundee. William Gow Young married Margaret Logan on 22 Jun 1940. His parents are given as William Gow Young and Anne Miller. Margaret Logan Meachan’s parents are given as Peter Logan and Mary Smith. The witnesses were James McLaren and Robina Husson. Under his name is written St Pats 1940 and under her name Cathedral 25 May 1887.
This document was archived as N339.jpg and can be found at Find My Past here.
I decided to look at the civil registration of this marriage. It contained the following information:
On 22 June 1940 at St. Patrick’s Church, Dundee William Gow Young, aged 50, occupation (???) Hopperman, a widower residing at 11 Harriet Street, Dundee and the son of William Gow Young, General Labourer (Deceased) and Ann Young, previously Duncan M.S. Miller married, after Banns according to the Forms of the Roman Catholic Church, to Margaret Logan Meachan, aged 53, a Jute Spinner, widow, residing at 14 Dura Street, Dundee and the daughter of Peter Logan, Boilermaker’s Labourer (Deceased) and Mary Logan M.S. Smith (Deceased). The witnesses were James McClaren of 45 Nelson Street Dundee and Robina Hussen of 75 Ann Street, Dundee. The marriage was registered on 24 June 1940 at Dundee.
This document is filed under N340.jpg and the original on Scotland’s People is here.
The above registration shows that Margaret Logan had been married before and this is likely to have been to Charles Meachen who died in 1939 See here for a useful link at Scotland’s People. The same query for deaths of Charles Meachens throws up a child of that name who died in 1912, aged 1, who had a mother with the maiden name of Logan. I found a likely marriage for Charles Meachen and Margaret Logan
| MEACHEN | CHARLES | LOGAN | MARGARET | 1906 | 282 / 4 / 246 | St Andrew (Dundee) |
Death for William Gow Young 9 Jan 1969
I found a statutory death registration for William Gow Young on Scotland’s People. He died 9 Jan 1969, aged 78 years at Ashludie Hospital, Monifieth, Dundee at 5h 35pm. The cause of death is given as 1a) Cardio-respiratory failure and 1b) Chronic Bronchitis and emphysema. His usual residence is given as 5 West Street, Dundee.
His occupation is Hopperman (Harbour) (Retired) and his father is given as William Gow Young, general labourer (Deceased) and his mother is given as Ann Young previously Duncan ms Miller (Deceased).
His marriages are listed as: 1) Agnes Neill, 2) Margaret Logan or Meacham.
The death was registered on 10th January 1969 by his daughter, Mary Lettice (see above)
This document was archived as N338.jpg and can be found at Scotland’s People here.
There is still a lot to look at in this tree at https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/81989763?cfpid=36454990952&dtid=100 particularly the fact that it mentions dates and places of death for many of the children of John Neil and Mary Anne Chrystal including
Death of John Neil b. 1 Jun 1890 – d. 26 Jul 1934
The child that followed Agnes was John. John Neil who was born 1 Jun 1890 at 31 Salisbury Street, Glasgow. I knew of his marriage to Mary McKenna in 1913 but did not know any of his children nor anything about his death.
I used the date suggested in the tree: 26 Jul 1934 in Shettleston and I found this by searching on Scotland’s People.
The registration recorded that John Neil died at 11:45pm on 26 Jul 1934 at 9 Pitcairn Street, Glasgow. He was a Dock Labourer married to Mary McKenna. He was aged 43 years and was the son of John Neil Coal Merchant (deceased) and Mary Ann Neil ms Chrystal (deceased). He died of 1) Chronic Bronchitis and 2) Phthisis. The death was certified by A. M. Davidson MB ChB. The informant was his wife, M Neil Widow (present) and the death was recorded on 27 July 1934 at Glasgow.
I filed the certificate as N342 and the original can be found at Scotland’s People here.
Possible John Neil and Mary McKenna at the 1921 Census
I searched for John and Mary at the 1921 Census – the first after they married and found an entry for a household living at 68 Main Street, Bridgetown, Glasgow comprised of John Neil, aged 31, a married dock labourer. In the column for the number of dependent children the number 1 has been written but then a green box has been drawn round it and the word “none” written above it. A green box also surrounds the cross in the number five box of the age at last birthday of dependents.
Mary Neil is his wife, aged 33 and her occupation is HD (Home Duties).
There is also an adopted son, Archibald, aged 5 months and 3 days. The marriage/orphanhood box has B/+ written in it. He is a scholar and all of them are said to have born in Glasgow, Lanarkshire. The ages for John and Mary are a good match. His death registration in 1934 recorded him as being a dock labourer.
I did try to find Archibald but as an adopted child, it wasn’t straight-forward. I looked on Scotland’s People at deaths for Archibald Neils born in 1916 and I found one who died aged 69 in 1986 and this would be correct for the Archibald we are looking for. I could not view a certificate online though.
| NEIL | ARCHIBALD | 69 | MCKENNA | M | 1986 | 617 / 59 | Glasgow, Martha St |
I searched for the death of a Mary Neil with an “other Surname” of McKenna and found an entry on Scotland’s People for a Mary Neil who died in 1963 at the correct age for our Mary’s birth.
This records the death of Mary Neil in the Distorict of Provan in the Burgh of Glasgow. Mary is described as aged 74 years old, the widow of John Neil, dock labourer and the daughter of James McKenna, Cabinetmaker (deceased) and Agnes McKenna MS Miller (deceased). She died at 10h 10m am at 2154 Gartloch Road, Glasgow. The causes of death were 1) Tabes dorsalis and 2) Cystitis as certified by Ian A Gibson MB ChB. The informant was A Neil, son of 77 Fordneuk Street, Glasgow.
So this is clearly the right person and we might be justified in thinking that Archibald, who was adopted, was their only son.
Tabes dorsalis is a slow degeneration of the nerve cells and nerve fibers that carry sensory information to the brain.
Gartloch Hospital, in the east end of the city, admitted its first patients in 1896 and officially opened as Gartloch District Asylum a year later. The psychiatric facility for “pauper lunatics” could hold more than 800 inmates.
Birth and Baptism of Mary McKenna 29 Dec 1889
I also thought that I would look for Mary’s birth and found a baptismal record for her on Find My Past in the Catholic marriage registers for St Mary of the Assumption (RC) in Calton, Glasgow. She was born 29 Dec 1889 and baptised 14 Jan 1889. (presumably an error – it would be 1890). Her father is recorded as James McKenn and her mother is Agnes Millour. The address given is 23 Marshall Street. The witness was Mary McGhee.
I logged this document as N345.jpg and the original can be found at Find My Past here.
That is where I stopped with John and Mary. I did look for the McKennas in the census returns but only found one that looked likely at https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1901%2F0037034806 James is a chair maker and he was recorded as a carpenter at Mary’s marriage to John Neil
[NOTE there is a lot more about Mary McKenna’s previous marriages on her marriage registration that I seem not to have added to the Family Historian file. Fix this.]
We already knew a lot about the next child, Timothy Chrystal Neil, my grandfather, and quite a lot about the child after that Elizabeth Neil b. 25 Jun 1895 in Glasgow. But Lisa Cooper’s tree also had some information I did not have about the children she had with John McGowan who she married in 1914 and with whom she went on to have thirteen children – most of whom survived childhood.
Elizabeth Chrystal Neil and John
McGowan
We already knew a lot about the next child, Timothy Chrystal Neil, my grandfather, and quite a lot about the child after that Elizabeth Neil b. 25 Jun 1895 in Glasgow. But Lisa Cooper’s tree also had some information I did not have about the children she had with John McGowan who she married in 1914 and with whom she went on to have thirteen children – most of whom survived childhood.
The following information is given for each of their children and I need to check the veracity (Lisa has been 100% accurate to date) and add the information I do not already have to my tree. She lists the following
B:16 Jun 1914 Gorbals, Lanarkshire, Scotland
D:21 May 1998 Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
B:17 Jul 1915 Glasgow Gorbals, Lanarkshire, Scotland
D:5 Jun 1994 Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
B:18 May 1917 Glasgow Gorbals, Lanarkshire, Scotland
D:9 Sep 1972 Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
B:15 Apr 1920 Glasgow Gorbals, Lanarkshire, Scotland
D:27 Jan 1922 Glasgow Gorbals, Lanarkshire, Scotland
B:26 Mar 1922 Glasgow Gorbals, Lanarkshire, Scotland
D:
Lisa didn’t have the information but I found her baptism.
She was born 26 March 1922 and was baptised 8 April 1922 at
St John the Evangelist, Portugal Street, Glasgow. Her father is given as Joannis (John) McGowan and her mother is Elizabeth Chrystal McGowan or Neil. The address is 10 1/2 Eglinto Lane.
A note says that on 25 Feb 1949 a marriage contract was made between her and joanne (John) Russel at St Roberts, Househillwood.
I logged this baptismal registration as N347.jpg and the original is at FMP at https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=S2%2FGBPRS%2FROMCATH%2FSCOT%2F92-1-2-7%2F0502&parentid=SCOT%2FRC%2FBAP2%2F0515741
I looked for a marriage based on the above entry and came across a Scotland’s People entry:
| MCGOWAN | ELIZABETH NEILL | RUSSELL | JOHN FULTON D G | 1949 | 644 / 18 / 165 | Pollok |
From <https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results/19916972386661e45edfce8>
I could not find a death for her
B:3 Jun 1923 Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
D:24 Dec 1923 Glasgow Gorbals, Lanarkshire, Scotland
I found his burial, aged 6 months, on 26 Dec 1923, address 10 1/2 Eglinton Lane.
B:4 Aug 1924 Glasgow Gorbals, Lanarkshire, Scotland
D:14 Jan 1998 Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
B:11 Sep 1925 Glasgow Gorbals, Lanarkshire, Scotland
D:9 Jan 1929 Bridgeton,Glasgow,Lanark,Scotland
B:7 Nov 1926 Glasgow Gorbals, Lanarkshire, Scotland
D:20 Jan 1971 Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
He probably married Doreen Catherine Barr in Pollok 1955
B:15 Aug 1928 Glasgow Gorbals, Lanarkshire, Scotland
D:4 Jan 1929 Bridgeton,Glasgow,Lanark,Scotland
B:15 Mar 1930 Glasgow Gorbals, Lanarkshire, Scotland
D:11 Jun 2014 Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
B:5 Jun 1931 Glasgow Gorbals, Lanarkshire, Scotland
D:9 Apr 1934 Glasgow Gorbals, Lanarkshire, Scotland
B:25 Jan 1935 Glasgow Gorbals, Lanarkshire, Scotland
D:18 Aug 1981 Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
B:30 Nov 1936 Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
D:14 Mar 1991 Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
Charles married (1957)
B:22 May 1934 Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
D:12 Feb 2009 Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
And they went on to have seven children, mostly still living.
Susan Logan Neil or Connor
Susan Logan Neil married John Connor and, like her brother John, seems not to have any natural children. Like John, Susan and John Connor adopted a son, Frank Rogan who was born in 1918.
I last knew of Susan at the 1821 Census when she and her husband and their adopted son lived at 4 Surrey Street, Gorbals. Lisa’s tree, however, also gave a date of death for her and I found this recorded in the statutory records at Scotland’s People.
“Susan Logan Neil (Widow of John Connor labourer) died aged 67 years at 8h 0m pm on 14th November 1964 at 126 Wellfield Street, Glasgow . She was the daughter of John Neil Carter (deceased) and Mary Anne Neil ms Chrystal (deceased). She died of (a) Thrombosis (b) Chronic Bronchitis as recorded by P Stilley. The informant was J Connor, son, of 14 ??? Street, Glasgow. The death was registered 16 Nov 1964.
I logged this certificate as N346.jpg and the original image is at Scotland’s People at https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/image-viewer/stat_deaths/stat_deaths-663568_4448704?search_token=8165539586660c08f6e7ab
Susan Logan Neil
Susan Logan Neil married John Connor and, like her brother John, seems not to have any natural children. Like John, Susan and John Connor adopted a son, Frank Rogan who was born in 1918.
I last knew of Susan at the 1821 Census when she and her husband and their adopted son lived at 4 Surrey Street, Gorbals. Lisa’s tree, however, also gave a date of death for her and I found this recorded in the statutory records at Scotland’s People.
“Susan Logan Neil (Widow of John Connor labourer) died aged 67 years at 8h 0m pm on 14th November 1964 at 126 Wellfield Street, Glasgow . She was the daughter of John Neil Carter (deceased) and Mary Anne Neil ms Chrystal (deceased). She died of (a) Thrombosis (b) Chronic Bronchitis as recorded by P Stilley. The informant was J Connor, son, of 14 ??? Street, Glasgow. The death was registered 16 Nov 1964.
I logged this certificate as N346.jpg and the original image is at Scotland’s People at https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/image-viewer/stat_deaths/stat_deaths-663568_4448704?search_token=8165539586660c08f6e7ab
The remaining children
The next two child were Charles and Isabella. As regards Charles, but Lisa’s tree did not add anything new for me. Regarding Isabella, I already knew that she had died, aged 7, in 1908
So that finished off everything about the children of John Neil and Mary Anne Chrystal that I could thanks to the research of Lisa Cooper at https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/81989763?cfpid=36454956330&dtid=100
I should look at other bits of this tree as Lisa has proven to be a very reliable source. Perhaps contacting the owner of the tree?