New Children of Thomas Neil and Agnes Feran Found

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The Problem

After having a massive brick wall with my ancestors Thomas Neil and Agnes Feran, I decided to ask James Oakes of the GWSFHS Research Team if he could give me some suggested lines of research.

Click Here for the full text of my message to GWoSFHS

William (Bill) Neil (membership No) 975
Good morning.
 
I have been a member of the society for quite a few years now and have really enjoyed the Zoom meetings; not just the talks themselves but the chatting afterwards which I learn a lot from. I was born and brought up in Musselburgh so my knowledge of Glasgow is only from books. I live in Manchester so most of my research is done online. During the post-talk chat you often mention that if any members have any queries, you would be happy to hear from them so I thought I would take this opportunity to ask about my “brick wall”
 
My ancestor, John Neill, had his birth and baptism recorded in the Catholic registers at St. Andrew’s Cathedral. He was the lawful son of Thomas Neill and Agnes Feran, born 14th April 1836 and baptised 4th July 1836. The name of Sponsors were Felix McPake and Helen Edmund and the clergyman was Peter Forbes. [I should add that Mrs Elizabeth Smith of the GWoSFHS very kindly found this for me by manually searching the register before digital copies were available online]
 
Their son, John Neil, married Sarah Cassidy on 15 Oct 1860 at 148 Hospital Street, Glasgow after Banns according to the UP Church. In the registration his father is recorded as a handloom weaver, deceased. His mother, Agnes Feran is also deceased. When John died in 1889 his father is said to have been “Thomas Neil, Coal Miner” and his mother was “Agnes Fearns”, both deceased.
 
My problem is that I have not found a marriage or death or burial for either of them. It has also been hard finding other children for them. I thought to find them in the 1841 Census but couldn’t. I made an enquiry of the GWoSFHS and James Oakes (if it is you reading this, James, thank you so much for your help) replied suggesting I look at a family living at Muirhead Street, Gorbals. The reason I had not found this entry was that Find My Past, Ancestry and Scotland’s People had all mis-transcribed the entry meaning that my searches were not successful. FreeCen, however, had it right and it found the following household
 
• Agnes Feren aged 40 born Ireland
• Charles McNeil aged 14 (Y – presumably born Lanarkshire)
• John (No surname) aged 4 (Y – presumably born Lanarkshire)
 
There are not many Agnes Ferens found when I search the records so I feel this could easily be her. John was said to be 4 so that fits reasonably well with the John here. Charles is a McNeil but I have examples of the same person being called Neil, O’Neil and McNeil in various records so that doesn’t bother me. There is no Thomas so that is a bit of a question and also, she is listed as Agnes Feren not Agnes McNeil (or any other variation)
 
I looked for the birth of Charles or a marriage or anything but had no luck. I couldn’t find any of them in the 1851 Census but found John and Sarah at the 1861 Census – they had married the year before the census. They were at 54 Main Street, Gorbals.
 
A while back I found that the Catholic registers were available on Find My Past, so I have been working my way through them. I have gone through about 6,000 of the 16,579 available pages so far but only discovered one event that I think belongs to the family and that was the birth of a son Patrick to Thomas and Agnes.
 
Patrick McNeil’s birth and baptism were also recorded in the Catholic registers at St. Andrew’s Cathedral. Patrick was the lawful son of Thomas McNeil and Agnes Fernan born about (two?) weeks ago was baptized by me on the 26 of August 1833. Sponsor Margt. Dixon. (signed by clergyman) William Hearst.
 
My personal opinion is that Agnes is more likely to be Ferren than Fernan but, either way, it is obviously the correct person. Again I have found out no more about Patrick apart from his birth and baptism. He is not with Agnes, Charles and John at the 1851 Census.
 
So, to summarise, I wonder if you can help me by suggesting some avenues of research I have not already pursued. I have looked in the usual places for the usual sort of events but to no avail. I have to say that one area I have not looked at is emigration as I am not sure where to begin with that. I have found it very frustrating that I can’t find anything more about Thomas, Agnes, Charles of Patrick. I did find a death from cholera of a Thomas Neil, quarrier but that turned out to be a totally different person. Other than that, I’m not sure where to look now.
 
If you would like to see any copies of the relevant documents, please let me know.
I would appreciate any pointers you could give me and thanks again for all the good work the society does.
 
Best wishes
Bill Neil

At the next GWSFHS Zoom meeting I mentioned that I had not heard back from anyone and James said that he had tried to find them but had gone sideways and found the death of Charles Neil. Not only that, he had found the death of another child, Elizabeth Neil.

 Before seeing these two death registrations (Elizabeth Johnstone or Wilkie or McNeil) and Charles Neil, all I knew of the children of Thomas Neil and Agnes Feran was my direct ancestor John Neil. I knew of his birth and baptism and had an 1841 Census return that showed him living with his mother, Agnes Feran (sic), who was 40 and was born in Ireland. A Charles McNeil was listed as aged 14 born Lanarkshire and John was aged 5 born Lanarkshire. I did not know anything more about John until he married Sarah Cassidy in 1860. I had no other mention of Charles after this census. I had found another child, Patrick, born 12 Aug 1833 and baptised 26 Aug 1833 at St. Andrew’s Cathedral, Glasgow. That was the sum total of what I knew about the children of Thomas Neil and Agnes Feran. The two documents that James Oakes sent me changed all this.

Some Important Answers

Elizabeth Neil or McNeil or Wilkie or Johnstone born c. 1819

The first image that James sent me was a death registration for Elizabeth Johnstone.

Death of Elizabeth Johnstone 10 Dec 1872 at 28 Erroll Street, Glasgow

This certificate gave me a mine of information. Elizabeth had married David Wilkie and William Johnstone. I looked up marriages of Daniel Wilkies and came across this rather minimal entry in the Gorbals OPRs

Marriage of Elizabeth McNeill and David Wilkie 31 Dec 1840

I did not know why there is wasn’t a name after the “married by….” but there are a lot of entries that are the same on the same page. I looked at Find My Past for the Catholic registers and found this:

David Wilkie and Elizabeth Neal : 1841 Census St Ninian Street, Gorbals, Glasgow

Although only the words St Ninian are written in the left address column, I think it is clear that this means St Ninian’s Street. The enumerator’s description of the route is:

The 1841 Census was taken on 6 June 1841, which is six months after Daniel and Elizabeth married so it is not clear why she is not Elizabeth Wilkie; in fact here she is Elizabeth Neal (sic). Daniel is a dyer which occupation matches that given in Elizabeth’s death registration where he is recorded as her first husband. She is recorded as being a H.L.W. which fits well since her father was also a handloom weaver There is another handloom weaver in the lodgings, two power loom weavers, two tailors and a washerwoman. Both Daniel and Elizabeth are said to have been born in Ireland (which conflicts with what is recorded in the next census in 1851 where Elizabeth is said to have been born in Glasgow).

I found the couple again at the 1851 Census when they are living at 85 Main Street, Gorbals but there was a lot more than I expected at this address as there were other McNeils there as well.

David Wilkie and Elizabeth McNeill : 1851 Census – 85 Main Street, Gorbals, Lanarkshire, Scotland

This was quite a find. It shows that Daniel Wilkie is now aged 31 and is a Journeyman Dyer. Elizabeth, his wife, is 30. The have three children living with them, William aged 10 and a scholar, James, aged 4, and Elizabeth, aged 2. In the household are John McNeil, brother-in-law aged 15 and an apprentice tobacco spinner. His age would mean that he was born circa 1836 and convinces me that he is my 2 x great grandfather. There is an Agnes McNeil, sister-in -law who is aged 26 and unmarried – surely a sister to Elizabeth and John. She is a steam loom weaver. There is another McNeil, James McNeil who is not said to be related, is a lodger, unmarried and aged 37 (which would make him born in 1814) He is a boot and shoemaker like the other two lodgers – William and Patrick Brawley. All the residents are said to have been born in Glasgow which contradicts the entry for Daniel and Elizabeth at the 1841 Census where all the lodgers in the lodging house are said to be from Ireland.

Children of Daniel Wilkie and Elizabeth Neil/McNeil

Baptism of William Wilkie 13 Jun 1841 St Andrew Parish, Glasgow

Baptism of James Wilkie c 1847

I could not find a birth or baptism for James Wilkie as seen at the 1851 census.

Baptism of Elizabeth Wilkie 12 Mar 1849 St Andrew Parish, Glasgow

There was a possible other child in the Scotland’s People indexes showing an Agnes Wilkie, child of Daniel Wilkie and Bettie Wilkie born and baptised 6 August 1843. This rather suggests that she died the same day as her birth.

I tried to find Daniel and Elizabeth at the 1861 Census but could not find either of them. I know from her death registration that she married twice so I looked for a death for Daniel Wilkie but, again, came up with nothing.

Second Marriage of Elizabeth McNeill or Wilkie to William Johnstone

I could not find this marriage despite a long search of many possibilities. I did, however, find a census return for Elizabeth and her second husband and this is validated by the fact that the address at the census was the same as her address at the time of her death.

1871 Census – 28 Erroll Street, Govan, Hutchesontown, Lanarkshire, Scotland

I tried looking for their marriage in Glasgow and Dundee but I found nothing. I did not find a death for him either so that is where this story stops – for the moment.

Charles Neil b c 1826 in Lanarkshire

The other document that James sent me was the death registration of Charles Neil, the Charles we had seen at the 1841 Census when he lived with his mother and brother, John. I have found no other information about Charles despite looking hard for him

Death of Charles Neil 21 Dec 1858

I looked for children to Charles Neil and Elizabeth ?? And came across a Charles Neil lawful son of Charles Neil and Elizabeth Gillon (P.M.) born about a week old baptised 8 Jun 1854. Sponsor Helen McLaughlin (1854 NEIL, CHARLES (Catholic Registers Births and Baptisms MP 62 1 2 417 , Glasgow, St Andrew’s) but there wasn’t enough information to be certain that the child was relevant. Searching census returns proved fruitless as well