Were We Neils, McNeils or O’Neils? – Bill Neil Family History

The Problem

The question of the original name of the family arises principally because of the use of several variations in the name in the early years of our study. In researching the Neils (unlike the Ramsays), it soon becomes apparent that the surname, Neil, is very fluid. People can be referred to as Neill, Neil, O’Neil, McNeil, MacNeil and any number of variations of the spelling of these names. There are even examples in this narrative of the same person being referred to by all these name variations during their lifetime. The variations are sometimes the inventions of the officials who recorded the information, spelling names as they heard them or as they expected them to be spelled. Sometimes, at least in the earlier years of this story, the person who was being recorded was illiterate or could read but could not write.

It was only when people could write their own names that they started to be more fixed in their spelling. In general, though, names were more fluid in the past than they are now. When an Irish person referred to someone, they could be an O’Neill; if it was a Scottish person that referred to that same person, they could be a McNeil or a MacNeill.

As mentioned in my general introduction to the Neil family history, my approach to this has been to quote names as they are actually written in the documents but, for the sake of clarity in telling the story, I have settled on a sort of common denominator name as seen above in the generational links where they are all Neils unless there is a specific reason to mention a variation.

The question still remains, though, as to whether we were originally just Neils or whether we were one of the other variants of the name.

The Methodology

I have looked at as many documents as I have at the time of writing and have noted the names used, to or the names people are referred to in them. I looked at two generations; firstly, all the children of THomas Neill and Agnes Feran an, secondly, all the children of Thomas’s son, John. I know much more about John than any of the other children of Thomas Neil. I may research further in this area in due course but, for the moment I have concentrated on the earliest two generations of Neil.

The Research Part 1 – The Children of Thomas Neil and Agnes Feran or Ferns

All I know about Thomas Neil who was born circa 1800 is that he lived in Glasgow and his children are said to have been born there. His wife, Agnes Feran or Ferns was born in Ireland according to the 1841 Census but I do not know where he was born. Their known children were:

Elizabeth Neil b c 1819 in Glasgow

The first child of Thomas Neill and Agnes Feran was Elizabeth born about 1819 in Glasgow. I have not found her birth or baptism so the first we hear of her is at her marriage to Daniel Wilkie on 31 Dec 1840 (incidentally a popular day of the year to get married on account of the following day being a rare annual holiday in Scotland). At her marriage she was Elizabeth McNeill. At the 1841 Census she and Daniel are living at St Ninian’s Street Glasgow. He is Daniel Wilkie and she is Elizabeth Neal, handloom weaver (HLW). At the baptism of her son William Wilkie who was born 13 Jun 1841 and baptised 20 Jun 1841 she is Elisab. McNeill. At the 1851 Census she is living at 85 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow and she is Elizabeth Wilkie but she also has her brother John McNeil and sister Agnes McNeil and a lodger (I do not know the relationship but surely there is one) James McNeil. At her death on 10 Dec 1872 she is said to have been “Married to of William Johnstone Cabinet Maker (Journeyman) previously to Daniel Wilkie Cotton Dyer (Journeyman) ” she is not given a MS but her father is recorded as John Neil
CONCLUSION
Elizabeth is usually Elizabeth McNeil/l. There are a couple of exceptions to this and those are she is Elizabeth Neal at the 1841 Census and at her death her father is John Neil. I think she was thought of as a McNeil or McNeil. Her husband was born in Glasgow and this might have a bearing on this question.

Agnes Neil born c 1824 in Glasgow

Agnes Neil born c 1824 in Glasgow

The second child we know of was Agnes who was born about 1824 in Glasgow. Again we do not have a birth or baptism for her and we first find her referred to at the 12 Mar 1849 marriage of her sister Elizabeth to William Wilkie where she is probably one of the witnesses and there she is Agnes McNeil. At the 1851 Census where she lives with her older sister, Elizabeth and her husband Daniel Wilkie. Elizabeth’s brother John also lives with the Wilkie family and Agnes and John are both called McNeil. Agnes was the sponsor at the birth of her brother John’s daughter, Elizabeth’s baptism 30 Jan 1867 and here John is a Neil and she is Agnes Neil. I do not have a death for her or any other information.
CONCLUSION
Agnes is usually Agnes McNeil and once Agnes Neil

Charles Neil born c1826 in Glasgow

The next child we know of was Charles who was born about 1826 in Glasgow. I have not found a birth or baptism for him yet. We first come across him at the 1841 Census when he is living with his mother, Agnes Feran and his brother John and the two brothers are called McNeil. The only other reference to Charles is at his death 21 Dec 1858 when he is Charles Neil.
CONCLUSION
Not possible to say without more documentary evidence so either McNeil or Neil

Patrick Neil baptised 26 of Aug 1833 at Glasgow

The next child we only know from his baptism on 26 of Aug 1833. This is Patrick and he is baptised as a McNeil. I do not have any other documents that mention him yet.
CONCLUSION
A McNeil

John Neil born 14 Apr 1836 and baptised 4th Jul 1836 at Glasgow

I know much more about John Neil, my direct ancestor. He was born 14 Apr 1836 in Glasgow was recorded in many ways during his lifetime including Neil, Neill, McNeil, O’Neil, O’Neill and Arneil

John Neil born 14 Apr 1836 was baptised as John Neill
At the 1841 Census he was John McNeil
At the 1851 Census he was John McNeil
At the death of his brother, Charles, in1858 he was John Neil
When he married in 1860 he was John Neil
At the 1861 Census he was John McNeil
At the 1862 civil registration of the birth of his child, John, (he signed with his mark) he was John O’Neill
At the 1862 baptism of the birth of his child, John, he was John O’Neil
At the 1863 civil registration of the birth of his child Agnes he was John Neil (Sarah signed with her mark)
At the 1863 civil baptism of his child Agnes he was John Neil
At the 1865 civil registration of the birth of his child Ann he was John Arneil (John signed with his mark)
At the 1865 baptism of his child Ann he was John O’Neill(John signed with his mark)
At the 1866 death registration of his daughter Ann he was John Arneil (John signed with his mark)
At the 1866 death registration of his daughter Agnes he was John Neil (he signed with his mark) – here it is worth noting that only 2 days separated the deaths of their two daughters Agnes (aged 3) and Ann (aged 11 months) but at the former he is John Neil and at the latter he is John Arneil. In both cases he was the informant and in both cases he signed with his mark. The registrars were different
At the 1867 civil registration of the birth of his child Elizabeth he was John Neil (Sarah signed with her mark)
At the 1867 baptism of his child Elizabeth he was John Niel
At the 1869 civil registration of the birth of his child Sarah he was John Neil (Sarah signed with her mark)
At the 1869 baptism of his child Sarah he was John Cassidy (this is a mistake since Sarah is called O’Neill
At the 1871 Census he was John Neil
At the 1871 civil registration of the birth of his child Mary he was John Neil (Sarah signed with her mark)
At the 1871 baptism of the birth of his child Mary he was John Neil
At the 1871 death registration of his daughter Mary he was John Neill (he signed with his mark)
At the 1872 civil registration of the birth of his child Thomas he was John Neil (Sarah signed with her mark)
At the 1873 baptism of his child Thomas he was John Neil (Sarah signed with her mark)
At the 1874 civil registration of the birth of his child James he was John Neil (he signed with his mark)
At the 1874 death registration of his son James he was John Neil (he signed with his mark)
At the 1876 civil registration of the birth of his child Charles he was John Neil (he signed with his mark)
At the 1876 baptism of his child Charles he was John Neill
At the 1879 civil registration of the birth of his child Mary he was John Neil (Sarah signed with her mark)
At the 1880 civil registration of the marriage of his son John he was John Neil (John Jr signed with his mark)
At the 1881 Census he is John O’Neil
At the 1885 civil registration of the marriage of his daughter Lizzie he was John Neill – despite Lizzie being Lizzie Neil (Lizzie signed her name)
At the civil 1889 registration of the marriage of his daughter Sarah he was John Neil (Sarah signed her name)
At his death in 1889 he was John Neil (John Neil, son, was present)

CONCLUSION
John was baptised John Neill on 4 Jul 1836 and at his marriage on 15 Oct 1860 and when he was a witness at the death of brother Charles on 21 Dec 1858 he was also John Neil but he was John McNeil at the censuses of 1841, 1851 and 1861. Thereafter he seems largely to have been John Neil or John Neill. The 1881 Census is an outlier where his entire family is O’Neill but I suspect that this was either the invention of his Irish born wife Sarah Cassidy or the enumerator. He is John Arneil at the death registration of his daughter, Ann Arneil on 17 Mar 1866 but two days before at the death registration of his daughter, Agnes, he is John Neil and ten months later, at the birth of his daughter, Elizabeth, he is again John Neil. I think that it is clear that he was John Neil for most of the events in his life with just the odd variations that can be explained in ways that suggest that he always thought of himself as John Neil or Neill

General Conclusion

No matter what followed with the grandchildren of Thomas Neill and Agnes Feran it seems clear that their children were almost always McNeils or Neils or Neills. It is not possible to say which is more correct than the other. They may be equally valid but it seems that it is not really with this generation that O’Neil comes seriously into being. It is my thinking that where people were illiterate, there was a tendency to “Irishify” their names. It may also be that when a male Neil married an Irishwoman (We know that Agnes Feran or Ferns was born in Ireland and that Sarah Cassidy was also) there could be the possibility that the family were regarded as O’Neils. My working hypothesis is, however, that the family were originally McNeils or Neils.

The above conclusions are summarised in an Excel Spreadsheet clicking Name Variations for Children of Thomas Neill and Agnes Feran will start the download

The Research Part 2 – The Children of John Neil and Sarah Cassidy

I moved on to the next generation to see how their names evolved and these were the children of John Neil and Sarah Cassidy.

John Neil born 9 Apr 1962 at 11 Kirk Street, Gorbals, Glasgow

John Neil born 9 Apr 1962 at 11 Kirk Street, Gorbals, Glasgow
At his birth registration he was John O’Neill. The informant was John O’Neill his x mark Father
At his baptism on 9 Apr 1862 he was recorded as being John O’Neil.
At the 1871 Census he was John Neil.
When he married Mary Anne Chrystal on 2 Oct 1880 he signed with his x mark John Neil.
At the 1881 Census, while the rest of his family were being recorded as O’Neils living at 4 Surrey Street, Glasgow, John, who had married Mary Anne Chrystal, had his own residence at the very same address but he was recorded as being John Neil.
At the birth of his daughter, Mary Ann, 16 Jul 1881 he was John Neil. He was the informant and signed with his x mark.
At the birth of his daughter, Sarah, 10 Sep 1883 he was John Neil. Mary Ann was the informant and she signed with her x mark
At the birth of his daughter, Elizabeth Crystal, 11 Feb 1886 he was John Neil. Mary Ann was the informant and she signed with her x mark
At the death of his daughter, Elizabeth on 16 Mar 1888 he was John Neil. Mary Ann was the informant and she signed with her x mark
At the birth of his daughter, Agnes, 26 Mar 1888 he was John Neil. Mary Ann was the informant and she signed with her x mark
John was the informant at the death of his father on 23 Feb 1889 and he is John Neil. He signed with his name

At the birth of his son John 1 Jun 1890 he was John Neil, He also signed with his name

At the 1891 Census he is John Neil.
At the birth of his son, Timothy Chrystal Neil, on 13 Jan 1893 he was John Neil. Mary Ann was the informant and she signed with her x mark.
At the birth of his daughter, Elizabeth Chrystal Neill, on 25 Jun 1895 he was John Neill. Mary Ann was the informant and she signed with her x mark.
At the birth of his daughter, Susan Logan Neil, on 12 Oct 1897 he was John Neil. Mary Ann was the informant and she signed with her x mark.
At the birth of his son, Charles Neil, on 30 Apr 1899 he was John Neil. He signed with his name

At the birth of his daughter, Isabella Neil, on 12 Jul 1901 he was John Neil. He signed with his name

At the marriage of his daughter, Mary Ann Neil on 1 Apr 1907 he is referred to as John Neil, carter.
At the death of his daughter, Isabella Neil, on 5 Sep 1908 he is John Neil. Mary Ann was the informant and she signed with her x mark.
At the 1911 Census he is John Neill – He and his family are boarders in the household of John Kemp
At his death on 30 Dec 1911 he is John Neil.

CONCLUSION
Apart from his birth and baptism where he is John O’Neill, he is for the next 21 records that I have for him John Neil except for two occasions where an additional l is added to the Neil name. Of the four instances where he writes his name it is always J or John Neil. Regarding this subject, the last known document where he signs with his mark is at the birth of his daughter, Mary Ann, on 16 Jul 1881. His next appearance as an informant is at the death of his father on 23 Feb 1889. At each other event where the document shows him as the informant, he signs with his name. It would appear that he learned to write between 1881 and 1889 (his age range would have been approx 19-27). Mary Ann, his wife, is never recorded as signing with her name and always uses her x mark.
Definitely a Neil despite his birth certificate

Agnes Neil born 3 Jul 1863 at 135 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow

Agnes Neil born 3 Jul 1863 at 135 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow
Agnes Neil only lived for 3 years. She was born 3 Jul 1863 as Agnes Neil, was baptised 20 Jul 1863 as Agnes Neil and she died 15 Mar 1866 as Agnes Neil
CONCLUSION
Always Agnes Neil

Ann Neil born 3 Apr 1865 at 135 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow

Ann only lived for 11 months and was Ann Arneil on her birth registration on 3 Apr 1865 and Ann Arneil at her death registration on 17 Mar 1866
CONCLUSION
Always Ann Arneil – an obvious corruption of O’Neil said in the broadest of accents. I look at this in more detail in this post.

Elizabeth Neil b 18 Jan 1867 at 135 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow

Elizabeth Neil b 18 Jan 1867 at 135 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow
Elizabeth (or Lizzie) was Elizabeth Neil at her birth on 18 Jan 1867. At her baptism on 30 Jan 1867 she was Elizabeth Niel. At the 1871 Census she is Elizabeth Neil but like the rest of the family, at the 1881 Census she is Elizabeth O’Neil. At the marriage to John Carruthers on 8 Apr 1885 she is Lizzie Neil. At the birth of her daughter Mary Carruthers on 22 Nov 1893, her MS is given as Lizzie Neil. Mary only lived for a brief period, dying on 2 Jan 1894 where Lizzies MS is given as Lizzie Neil. At the birth of her daughter Annie on 19 Dec 1894 her MS is Lizzie Neil. Lizzie’s son, John Carruthers had a very brief existence being born 7 Nov 1897 where his mother’s MS is given as Lizzie Neil. At his death on 7 Nov 1897 his mother’s MS is given as Lizzie Neil. The same goes for the death of her daughter Annie on 5 Jan 1898 where her mother’s MS is given as Lizzie Neil. She is also MS Lizzie Neil at the birth of her son, Thomas Carruthers on 18 Mar 1899. Thomas dies 8 months later 5 Dec 1899 where his mother’s MS is given as L Neil. At the censuses she is always a Carruthers so these cast no light on her maiden name. Likewise at the death of her mother, Sarah Neil or Cassidy on 6 Aug 1916 she is just Lizzie Carruthers. At her own death she is Elizabeth Carruthers but her father is given as John Neil.
CONCLUSION
Apart from the 1881 Census where the family are all O’Neils, Elizabeth is very consistently Lizzie Neil (and once Lizzie Niel)

Sarah Neil born 5 Aug 1869 at 135 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow

At her birth she is Sarah Neil and at the 1871 Census she is Sarah Neil. At the 1881 Census she is Sarah O’Neil. At her marriage to William Stalker on 25 Jan 1899 she is Sarah Neil. At the birth of her daughter, Isabella Smith Stalker, on 26 May 1890 she is MS Sarah Neil. At the birth of her daughter, Sarah Stalker on 23 Sep 1891 she is MS Sarah Neil. At the birth of her son, John Neil Stalker, on 11 Jul 1892, she is MS Sarah Neil. At the death of William Stalker 1 Jun 1894 she is Sarah Neil. At the birth of her son William David Stalker on 9 Jun 1894 she is MS Sarah Neil.
At her second marriage to Thomas Mullen on 23 Apr 1897 she is Sarah O’Neil or Stalker. At the baptism of her son Thomas Mullen who was born 31 Aug 1897 she is Sarah O’Neil. When her son, Charles Mullen is born 13 Mar 1899 she is Sarah O’Neil. When her son, John Mullen is born 26 Aug 1900 she is Sarah O’Neil. When her son, James Mullen is born 22 Apr 1902 she is Sarah O’Neil. When her daughter, Sarah Mullen is born in 29 Oct 1904 she is Sarah O’Neill. When her daughter, Margaret Mullen is born in 10 Jul 1907 she is Sarah O’Neil. When her daughter, Isabella Mullen marries in 20 May 1910 she is Sarah Neil. When she dies on 15 Jan 1944 she is Sarah O’Neil.
CONCLUSION
Sarah is an interesting case because, apart from the 1881 when her family as a whole are recorded as O’Neils, she is a Neil. For as long as she is married to William Stalker her MS is Sarah Neil. When, and after, she marries Thomas Mullen her MS is O’Neil. It might be worth considering that William Walker was born in England and Thomas Mullen was born in Ireland. Is this a consideration?

Mary Neil b 5 May 1871 at 137 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow

Mary Neil b 5 May 1871 at 137 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow
Mary Neil was born 5 May 1871 at 137 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow. She was baptised 14 May 1871 where she was also Mary Neil. She died aged 5 months as was Mary Neill at her death registration.
CONCLUSION
Not much to conclude on such a short life She was always Mary Neil/l

Thomas Neil b 28 Dec 1872

Thomas Neil was born 28 Dec 1872 at 135 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow
Thomas was born Thomas Neil on 28 Dec 1872. He was baptised 2 Jan 1873 where he was Thomas Neil. At the 1881 census he was Thomas O’Neil. At the 1891 Census he was Thomas Neil. At the 1911 Census he was Thomas O’Neil. He lived at the same address (but not household as his sister, Lizzie Carruthers or Neil who also had his brother Charles O’Neil in her household at the taking of the same census. He died 31 Aug 1922 at 4 Surrey Street, Gorbals, Glasgow. He was recorded as Thomas Neil.
CONCLUSION
Born and died a Neil but was an O’Neil at the 1881 Census (as were the whole family) and the 1911 Census.

James Neil born 3 Dec 1874

James Neil was born and died 3 Dec 1874 at 135 Main Street, Gorbals.
He only lived for 4 minutes and died as he was born James Neil.
CONCLUSION
Did not have a chance.

Charles Neil born 21 Aug 1876 at 135 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow

Charles Neil born 21 Aug 1876 at 135 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow
He was baptised Charles Neill on 28 Aug 1876. At the 1881 Census he was Charles O’Neil. At the 1891 Census he was again Charles Neil. On 23 Apr 1897 he was a witness at the marriage of his sister Sarah O’Neil of Stalker and Thomas Mullen (her second husband). Her father is stated to be John O’Neil but Charles Neill is a witness. At his marriage to Annie Carlisle on 25 Aug 1899 he was Charles O’Neill and his father is said to have been John O’Neill. At the 1901 Census he was Charles Neil. On 20 May 1910 he was a witness at the marriage of his niece (daughter of his sister Sarah) Isabella Smith Stalker where he was Charles O’Neil. At the 1911 Census he is living with his sister Lizzie and her husband John Carruthers and he is Chas O’Neil. His son, Charles, was born circa 1919 but I do not have documentation of this. At the 1921 Census he is Charles Neil. On the death of his brother, Thomas, on 31 Aug 1922 he is Charles Neil. He is also the informant at the death of his sister, Elizabeth Carruthers; her father is recorded as John Neil and he is Charles Neil. I do not have a death registration for him.
CONCLUSION
Born Charles Neil, that is how he often is. The 1881 census saw the whole family as O’Neils but the name still occasionally returned especially at this marriage. Even then he was back to Charles Neil at the very next census. Basically a mixed bag.

Mary Neil born 28 Mar 1879

Mary Neil born 28 Mar 1879 at 4 Surrey Street, Glasgow. Mary was Mary O’Neil at the 1881 Census and Mary Neil at the 1891 Census. When she married Patrick O’Hara on 31 Dec 1898 she was Mary O’Neil. Thereafter she is always a Mary O’Neil at the births of her eight children between 1899 and 1913. Her husband is always said in the census returns to have been born in Glasgow. When she died on 10 Mar 1945 her MS is not recorded but her father is said to have been John Neil.
CONCLUSION
An out and out O’Neil with very few exceptions.

The above conclusions are summarised in an Excel Spreadsheet clicking Name Variations for Children of John Neil and Sarah Cassidy will start the download.

General Conclusions

John Neil was baptised as John O’Neill but this is very much an outlier. At every other point in his life he is John Neil or sometimes Neil. Every time he signs his own name it is John Neil. Agnes did not live long so there is no real documentation for her apart from birth and death where she is a Neil. Ann is a real peculiarity being given the name Arneil, the meaning of which I discuss elsewhere. Elizabeth or Lizzie Neil was always a Neil except at the 1881 Census which I assume was a quirk of the enumerator based on Sarah’s Irish accent.

Sarah’s daughter Sarah is interesting because she was always a Neil and stayed that way through her first marriage to the English-born William Stalker (which lasted 5 years before he died). When she married the Irish-borne Thomas Mullen she suddenly becomes an O’Neil. This continues until her death. This seems to show that when an Irish-born person was part of the heads f household, there was a slight tendency for the name to change to O’Neil.

Mary Neil had a very short life but Thomas, who never married, lived to be forty-nine. He was a Neil until the 1911 Census where both he and his brother Charles (who were neighbours at the same address but did not live in the same household)were O’Neils. James only lived a few minutes but was still registered as a Neil.

Charles is a mixed bag. Although he was born Charles Neill, he was an O’Neil at the 1881 Census (an anomaly I think) and at his marriage in 1899 he was Charles O’Neil. Thereafter he sometimes the one and sometimes the other. Mary Neil was an out and out O’Neil – especially after she married the Patrick O’Hara, who although born in Glasgow, was also from an Irish mother and father.

Taken all in all, there seems to be a mixture of influences at work with the names in this family. Thomas Neil and that generation of children were all solidly McNeils or Neils, but with their children the Irish influence came in more and the O’Neil version of the name evolves. Mostly people are not writing their names themselves and when they do, as in the Case of John Neil, when he learns to write, we writes his name as John Neil.

In general, from the first record we looked at in 1836 through to the 1881 Census for John Neil and Sarah Cassidy at 4 Surrey Street, the family are always Neil or McNeil apart from the single baptism of John Neil in 1862. I can only imagine that it was Sarah Cassidy that presented him for baptism at St John the Evangelist, Portugal Street, Glasgow; I would think John would be working. The sponsor was Sarah’s (also Irish) mother Bridget Cassidy whowas the sponsor. An additional oddity here, though, was that at the civil registration he was named John O’Neill but his father, who signed with his x mark was named John Neil. After that, and until 1897 when Sarah Neil re-marries to Thomas Mullen the name is normally Neil or Neill. It with Sarah Neil’s second marriage that the O’Neil name returns. Her sister, Mary was also more consistently O’Neill.

I conclude from this that the further back we go, research is likely to produce McNeils or Neils rather than O’Neils.